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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the antique auction

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forum podcast we're recording live

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stream on youtube

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and we're going to be talking leonardo

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today about the

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recent 450 million dollar uh it actually

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shattered

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the world record uh previously was 300

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million for any artwork at auction

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so we're going to be talking about that

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and before i introduce our guest just a

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little bit about the show

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i started this podcast back in 2009

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there are over 180

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free podcasts at antiqueauctionforum.com

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and you're welcome to check those out

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there you can put them on itunes your

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media player

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or whatever a lot of informational

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things there my background in a nutshell

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i'm a second generation auctioneer

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antique and fine art appraiser

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and i've been loving what i have been

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doing since 1970

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and that includes auctioneering

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appraising estates corporate and

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institutional collections

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and cataloging at auction houses all

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around the u.s

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my appraisal website is

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dot seaboardappraisals.com now about our

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guest martin kemp

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um he is an emeritus uh research

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professor

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in history of art at oxford university

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he has written and broadcast extensively

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on

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imagery in art and science from the

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renaissance to the present day

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leonardo da vinci has been the subject

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of his books

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written by him including leonardo

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that's an oxford university press in

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2004

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and you can find out more about martin

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at martin

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i should say www.martinjkempkemp.com

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all right so welcome to the show martin

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uh pleasure to be on

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yes and uh you were on before we talked

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about another uh discovery which is very

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i mean

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i hear like it's a once in a hundred

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year

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experience discovering an unknown da

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vinci

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but there is actually another one

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floating out there we'll talk about that

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later on if you want to or any updates

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on that one quickly because you were on

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the show

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about that before at one time that's

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right

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yeah uh so we'll talk a little bit about

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that later on

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but uh for the listener um

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can you just uh let uh us know how you

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got interested in the subject of da

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vinci

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in the beginning it was kind of

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accidental in a way i

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i didn't study him when i was doing

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postgraduate studies and

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in any detail i thought he looked big

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and difficult

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um and it was a kind of accident a young

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tv

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producer uh training with the bbc

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was going to do his diploma program not

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to be transmitted but just

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as a graduation program as it were and

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he chose to do it on leonardo's water

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drawings and

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clearly he went to the big people like

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ernest gombrick and john sherman who was

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a student of and they weren't going to

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do a program that wasn't be transmitted

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and somewhere along the line they came

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to me and they said would you help and i

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said yes not knowing

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even vaguely how i was going to do that

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and

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uh ants gumbrick lent us his

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then unpublished paper on the form of

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movement

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in air and water looking at all the

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vortex configurations and all these

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exciting

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drawings and reading the gumbrick paper

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i thought ah

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i know what's happening here i felt like

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i was coming home in a way that

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my background in natural sciences at

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least meant that i had

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some feeling and sense of what was

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happening in such things and i did a bit

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of geology also at

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cambridge so um it just seemed to make

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sense and

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having worked on that program on

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on the learn out of drawings of water i

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don't know why they chose that

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i thought where do i begin with leonardo

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i was mainly natural sciences so i

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started looking at the anatomy

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ah and that is fascinating i mean he

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i believe he dissected over around 30

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um humans but also animals as well right

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yeah

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the leonardo later in life when he was

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in the french court he was visited

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by the cardinal of aragon's visiting

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party and

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the the secretary antonio de beia

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artists looked at

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what leonardo had with him including the

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anatomical drawings and leonardo claimed

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to have dissected

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large numbers of bodies i think he

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rolled in that

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um a lot of animal dissections

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um so i don't think we can literally

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take it that he dissected large numbers

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of human bodies

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human material was very rare difficult

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to come by

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you had to have special protocols and

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i don't think he did many full human

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dissections but

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animals were thought to be differently

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arranged but essentially the same

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and he he dissected horses and

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and oxen and other animals

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now he was planning to do a treatise on

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human anatomy

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that it never uh it was never completed

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is that is that right did i hear that

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yes he the earliest signs of that are in

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1489

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he he was in milan and it was in the

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court of milan he really had

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time and opportunity to pursue his

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intellectual pursuits

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and there's that's the first mention of

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a book on

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on anatomy as such it's difficult to see

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by the end of his career that

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he could fit everything he'd done into

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one book

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he said in 1510 i'm hoping to bring to

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conclusion all this anatomy

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um and scattered across all these many

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these many folios these many many books

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the many codices and so on but

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yeah it became an almost impossible task

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he could have written a treatise on the

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heart alone by the end of his life

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wow wow now how much of the

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that part of what he was doing had to do

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with

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artwork um did he want to

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you know basically understand the human

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body and how it how it works as far as

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his his paintings and artwork his

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predecessors in florence

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paliolo verracchio his master

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michelangelo to a degree

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they concentrated on what lay under the

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surface of the flesh that's to say the

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muscles and the bones

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and they were interested in the

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structure and the movement

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where leonardo departs is he looks for

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deeper causes he wants to know how does

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the brain work

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how does the eye see how does the

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circulation or not circulation but how

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does the movement of the blood work

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so he saw that not literally serving

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painting in that very obvious way of

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saying i

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i can portray a figure much better if i

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know where the muscles are

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he said i really need to understand

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how a human being works and i can then

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make

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his

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ambition is related to pictures and

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indeed a

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painting is a supreme expression of

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leonardo's knowledge of the natural

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world

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but it's not functional in that more

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obvious sense he's going

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into very deep-lying causes as to

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how a human being operates well yeah

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interesting so getting on to our topic

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today

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the what it was a painting titled uh

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salvatore

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monday uh savior of the world i believe

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that's what it translates to or

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close to it right indeed though leonardo

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is real so he transforms

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into something slightly different

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well i want to read quickly there uh uh

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an excerpt

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from an article in the new orleans

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advocate um

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quote the painting was sold again in

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1958

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then it was acquired in 2005 badly

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damaged and partly painted over

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by a consortium of art dealers who paid

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less than ten thousand dollars

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i'm 84 45 euros at auction

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at an auction house in louisiana unquote

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now why

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is most of the press not that it matters

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any but why is most of the press

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saying that this was bought at an estate

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sale and not an auction do you have any

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idea

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i don't know that uh my understanding is

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it was

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when uh robert simon and alexander

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parish

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the two the two first dealers who are

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involved with it noted it i think it was

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in a sale in louisiana

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yeah and an auction sorry as an auction

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indeed right that's my understanding and

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why um

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the thing that the question that came to

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mind just being in the business that i

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am

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um is why um this ten thousand dollar

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it's not really a lot to invest so why

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was there a consortium

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involved to begin with there wasn't

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really a consortium um

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auctioneers and hours you you will know

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spend a lot of time combing uh

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catalogues online

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auction catalogues and uh

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they do that for the smaller auctions

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and they are they often bid without

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seeing the object if it's uh

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if it's not going to be too expensive

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and they think it's worth a punt as they

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say

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and they both they know they knew each

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other

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but they both noticed it independently

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and exchanged views on it and although

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it looked pretty terrible it looked

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like what i described as drug-crazed

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hippie at that point it was

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heavily over-painted it was clearly

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fairly old it was painted on

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walnut panel therefore they thought well

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you know there are lots of versions of

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the sour to mundy this is at least an

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old one let's um

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let's have a go at it if it proves not

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to be very much

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then in terms of the prices of old

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master paintings so

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they would not they were not going up

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very high in the scale of things

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could you hold on just a minute my front

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door is

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can we just break for a moment uh yeah

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we are live so

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um it's a man has got all my doors

287
00:10:48,470 --> 00:10:46,959
front and back doors off the hinges at

288
00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:48,480
the moment

289
00:10:51,750 --> 00:10:50,640
all right that's fine all right so i'll

290
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:51,760
talk a little bit um

291
00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:54,800
so this um this painting

292
00:10:58,870 --> 00:10:56,800
um you know it's one of these things

293
00:11:02,069 --> 00:10:58,880
where if you

294
00:11:03,910 --> 00:11:02,079
um if if you saw this in an auction

295
00:11:05,269 --> 00:11:03,920
you know i'm sure a lot of people are

296
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:05,279
kicking themselves because

297
00:11:09,990 --> 00:11:07,040
you know the payday of this thing ended

298
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:10,000
up being a world record 450

299
00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:13,440
million dollars which is quite amazing

300
00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:15,680
and it just one of the questions i'll be

301
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,560
asking you know

302
00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:18,640
how many hands did this actually slip

303
00:11:21,190 --> 00:11:19,600
through

304
00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:21,200
by the time it actually hit the auction

305
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:29,590
i also want to find out um you know

306
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:31,680
there's a lot of speculation about who

307
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:32,800
bought this

308
00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:36,560
and uh just today in the new york times

309
00:11:40,230 --> 00:11:39,360
there was an article about um about

310
00:11:42,069 --> 00:11:40,240
trying to find out

311
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:42,079
trying to root out who the buyer was of

312
00:11:46,949 --> 00:11:43,920
this we'll be talking about that

313
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:46,959
and a lot more and he's back

314
00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:50,560
so uh martin so did you have any more a

315
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:51,920
continuation of what you were talking

316
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:52,639
about or

317
00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:56,160
you want to keep moving on here yes

318
00:12:00,389 --> 00:11:57,040
basically

319
00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:00,399
they they bought it at that price

320
00:12:05,110 --> 00:12:02,720
and it was taken back to new york and

321
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:05,120
was put in robert simon's hands

322
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:07,120
and it was he who then instigated the

323
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,480
research and the

324
00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:10,480
cleaning of the picture the restoration

325
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:12,399
of it now i have a

326
00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:14,000
up on the screen right now some

327
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:16,240
restoration images

328
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:20,000
and um i i guess the question i

329
00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:21,360
want to ask and i'm sure you've answered

330
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:23,040
this a number of times but

331
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:26,639
how far into the restoration process

332
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:29,600
did um did all of a sudden the light

333
00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:30,480
come on that

334
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:31,839
you know i think we really have

335
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:34,160
something here yeah i think it was

336
00:12:37,870 --> 00:12:35,120
pretty early

337
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:37,880
um robert simon took it to the

338
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:40,160
modestinis

339
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:43,279
and the husband and wife and

340
00:12:51,509 --> 00:12:48,000
diane who he's about 90 but diane was

341
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:51,519
actively involved still in in conserving

342
00:12:54,629 --> 00:12:54,320
and he took it across new york in a in a

343
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:54,639
bin

344
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:01,430
and um they did a

345
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,920
she did a test clean just to see what

346
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:05,200
was happening and it was perfectly

347
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:06,880
obvious that it was

348
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:09,120
heavily overpainted and the overpaint

349
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:11,440
would come off relatively readily

350
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:13,120
and i think it was pretty soon in that

351
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:15,120
they thought this is actually

352
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:17,680
interesting they didn't think ah this is

353
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:19,440
the not original

354
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:22,000
it took much more than that but the the

355
00:13:24,629 --> 00:13:24,240
initial cleans suggested that there was

356
00:14:04,790 --> 00:13:24,639
a

357
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:04,800
with the thumb

358
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:07,360
and a pentamento a change of mind

359
00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:09,120
doesn't mean to say it has to be the

360
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,320
original but it

361
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:12,480
it helps a good deals it says well it's

362
00:14:17,829 --> 00:14:16,160
not just a purely mechanical copy uh

363
00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:17,839
back when you and i spoke about the

364
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,320
labella principessa

365
00:14:24,949 --> 00:14:23,120
i remembered there was a gentleman named

366
00:14:29,189 --> 00:14:24,959
i believe pascal

367
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:29,199
in france that did some imagery

368
00:14:32,629 --> 00:14:31,040
that was fascinating i can't remember

369
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:32,639
what the pixels were

370
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:35,600
but um was any of that done with this

371
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:36,800
with this picture

372
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:40,000
yeah this has been very uh it's been

373
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:41,839
examined by x-rays by

374
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:44,399
infrared reflectography which is a

375
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:45,519
technique of

376
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:48,079
bouncing infrared rays off the priming

377
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,160
and you pick up

378
00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:52,240
with any luck you pick up drawings and

379
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:53,360
changes which

380
00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:58,160
are done in with carbon rich pigments uh

381
00:15:00,870 --> 00:15:00,000
yeah there's been fully scientifically

382
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:00,880
examined

383
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,600
and yeah there are some pentimenti some

384
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:05,440
changes of mind around the

385
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:07,760
top of the garment you can see that the

386
00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:10,480
the knot design has turned from a

387
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:13,199
curvy knot design into a rather angular

388
00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:14,880
knot design like you can see at the

389
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:17,360
moment

390
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:20,399
you could see particularly in infrared

391
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:23,120
where leonardo had pressed the the heel

392
00:15:28,629 --> 00:15:24,959
of his right hand

393
00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:28,639
into the paint to soften the the

394
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:31,199
transitions between light and shade we

395
00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:32,959
know he did that a lot and it's very

396
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:35,040
characteristic of leonardo the

397
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:38,720
the boys don't seem to have done that um

398
00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:40,560
and the technical examination yeah

399
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:42,240
revealed a number of very

400
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:44,639
very characteristic things they also

401
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:47,120
found the priming was very extraordinary

402
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:50,560
that uh leonardo is

403
00:15:53,749 --> 00:15:53,199
he he had a gesso priming ie plaster

404
00:15:57,509 --> 00:15:53,759
then

405
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:57,519
you put white lead on top and unusually

406
00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:00,720
leonardo sometimes tinted selected areas

407
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:02,880
or the whole of the areas

408
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:04,639
depending on what color was going to go

409
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:05,920
on top

410
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:08,560
and in this case it seems that he ground

411
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:09,920
some glass up

412
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:13,120
and put it in these priming layers which

413
00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:14,720
presumably was intended to give a kind

414
00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:16,880
of radiance to the picture

415
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:20,440
so that that very eccentric technical

416
00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:22,399
experimentation which almost differs

417
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:22,880
from

418
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:25,279
picture to picture is again very

419
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:27,519
characteristic of leonardo and

420
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:30,000
the the the followers and studio were

421
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:32,160
more conservative in that respect

422
00:16:35,430 --> 00:16:34,160
i wonder why he chose a panel that had a

423
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:35,440
nod in it which

424
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:38,800
later caused the crack yeah luckily

425
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:39,680
around the face

426
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:42,399
it didn't go through the face it's uh

427
00:16:47,509 --> 00:16:45,040
it's a walnut panel and he liked walnut

428
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:47,519
panels for the smaller scale pictures

429
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,079
it's uh it's obviously he felt it was a

430
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:52,000
good surface to paint on

431
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:55,120
and i think he he obviously wouldn't

432
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:56,240
have been aware

433
00:17:01,030 --> 00:16:59,759
that it was going to warp and and crack

434
00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:01,040
in that way

435
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:02,560
and indeed i think it would have been

436
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:04,959
kept in better conditions one imagines

437
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:08,000
it that have been badly affected by

438
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:10,720
an environment with huge changes of

439
00:17:14,549 --> 00:17:12,160
humidity

440
00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:14,559
it was certainly in britain for some

441
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:15,360
time and

442
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:18,480
uh surviving in the british climate of

443
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:20,480
humanity changes is rather different

444
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:23,120
from surviving italy

445
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:26,720
right right now about the um rest since

446
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:27,439
we're

447
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:28,880
kind of talking about the restoration

448
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:30,880
part of this um

449
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:34,480
there's talk about only 20 or so

450
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:37,520
of of this painting is original

451
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:40,000
and uh you know the rest is basically in

452
00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:42,400
painting in the restoration

453
00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:44,799
so and i know very very well done but in

454
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:46,960
your opinion at what point

455
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:49,919
um does a masterpiece not become you

456
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:51,360
know considered the work of

457
00:17:58,830 --> 00:17:55,120
uh an old master well first of all 20

458
00:18:02,230 --> 00:17:58,840
is absolutely 100 misleading

459
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:02,240
okay if you say how much

460
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:05,120
survives of the leonardo's surface in

461
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:07,919
its absolutely pristine condition

462
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,160
then you might get down to that kind of

463
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:12,000
level

464
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:14,960
but if you look at the picture and it

465
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:16,240
was stripped down

466
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:19,440
and you you're back to original paint

467
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:22,880
uh it's it's quite high i i wouldn't

468
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:24,480
wish to quantify it

469
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:26,880
very precisely but i would say about 80

470
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:28,080
percent of the panel

471
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:31,280
is covered in paint that leonardo put on

472
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:34,320
some of that is under painting or lower

473
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:35,200
layers

474
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:38,799
survived so it's quite a

475
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:41,440
it's quite complicated i have to say if

476
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:42,640
you saw

477
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,440
all the pictures we now delight in in

478
00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:47,039
galleries whether the metropolitan

479
00:18:49,669 --> 00:18:47,600
museum

480
00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:49,679
the louvre or the national gallery in

481
00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:51,520
london where if you saw them stripped

482
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:52,960
down that is to say

483
00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:55,760
all the infilling all the restoration

484
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:56,000
all

485
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:58,000
the conservation work removed we would

486
00:19:02,150 --> 00:18:59,600
be quite um

487
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:02,160
quite shocked by how damaged a lot of

488
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:03,360
these pictures are

489
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,440
yeah so the eight percent is um is a

490
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:07,440
nonsense it's um

491
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:11,280
uh if if it was literally 80

492
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:13,120
if you stripped off all the over

493
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:15,360
painting you would only have 20 percent

494
00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:15,840
of the

495
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:17,280
panel covered in paints and that's

496
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:18,880
absolutely not the case

497
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:21,200
i see so that is misleading in a lot of

498
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:22,000
the

499
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:26,000
glad i'm glad you cleared that up

500
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:29,520
yeah people cite this it's sloppy and

501
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:30,240
journalists

502
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,559
um who are looking for sensations tend

503
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,640
to tend to be rather sloppy and they

504
00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:36,240
pick up that figure as if some

505
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,320
if it's got some authority and i i don't

506
00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:40,160
know where it came from

507
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,039
but as as we know fake news gets

508
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:44,960
repeated

509
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:48,000
that's right um so um

510
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:50,000
the question i have about this this

511
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:51,360
thing was lost

512
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:54,000
in time a couple of times and a couple

513
00:19:59,110 --> 00:19:55,679
of different stretches

514
00:20:01,750 --> 00:19:59,120
how does something like that happen well

515
00:20:03,909 --> 00:20:01,760
if you look at the leonardo paintings

516
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:03,919
there is only one painting which has got

517
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:05,840
an absolutely continuous provenance

518
00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:07,360
that's to say the history of its

519
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:09,600
ownership and that's the last supper

520
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:12,320
and that's on the wall so it's not going

521
00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:13,840
to get lost probably unless it was

522
00:20:17,909 --> 00:20:14,799
covered up but

523
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:17,919
anyway it's only the last supper the

524
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:21,039
mona lisa has gaps in its history um

525
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:24,240
we don't know how it got into

526
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:26,240
france's the first collection it was in

527
00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:28,400
fontainebleau by 1550

528
00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:31,679
but leonardo died in 1519

529
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:34,799
so there's a there are there are gaps in

530
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:35,840
the provenance

531
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:39,520
um yeah and the chacilia galilei the

532
00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:41,200
wonderful painting of the lady with the

533
00:20:45,909 --> 00:20:42,400
ermine in krakow

534
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:45,919
that really appeared in the in the 19th

535
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:46,640
century

536
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:49,280
um really wow the benoit madonna and the

537
00:20:54,390 --> 00:20:50,720
hermitage appeared

538
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:54,400
early 20th century so um yeah things

539
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:56,480
things disappear they get neglected they

540
00:21:03,270 --> 00:20:59,200
get over painted or they're in

541
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:03,280
in obscure collections

542
00:21:06,549 --> 00:21:05,600
which haven't been visited by people who

543
00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:06,559
are

544
00:21:13,029 --> 00:21:09,760
recording the works of art or whatever

545
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:13,039
yeah it's common enough um you just

546
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:14,080
mentioned the painting

547
00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:16,000
and i forget what the animal is called

548
00:21:20,710 --> 00:21:17,440
it looks like a ferret

549
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:20,720
what's that it's an herman it's a it's

550
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:23,840
it's a it's an oversized herman and

551
00:21:28,149 --> 00:21:26,320
neoman is a symbol of purity and

552
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:28,159
moderation

553
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:30,080
that's actually just that's my favorite

554
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:32,159
painting

555
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:34,640
beautiful yeah yeah it's just wonderful

556
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:35,200
um

557
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:40,880
lost there is a picture i believe it's

558
00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:43,200
1908 or something like that

559
00:21:49,990 --> 00:21:46,880
um and that was the last time

560
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:50,000
it had surfaced is that correct and then

561
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:52,799
it it became lost from there for a while

562
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,120
yeah

563
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:55,600
but there's the question of the earlier

564
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,400
provenance and

565
00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:00,880
i'm right with robert simon who's the

566
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:02,480
prime discoverer of the picture and

567
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:04,240
margaret taleval one of my former

568
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,000
students who writing a book on it

569
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:09,120
and margaret delaval has

570
00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:12,720
has got a lot of the the provenance of

571
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:14,400
it when it was in the collections of

572
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:15,760
charles the first

573
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:17,679
in the interregnum after charles the

574
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:19,360
first had been beheaded

575
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,840
um and charles the second and then the

576
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:23,120
duke of buckingham

577
00:22:26,789 --> 00:22:24,960
so she's got a bit of the middle of the

578
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:26,799
provenance as it were

579
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:30,480
and getting it from leonardo to that

580
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:31,600
point there's a gap

581
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:33,520
and then there's a gap when it appears

582
00:22:39,029 --> 00:22:35,840
in the in the cook collection

583
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:39,039
and cook was a major english collector

584
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:40,159
particularly

585
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:42,960
um collected italian paintings this was

586
00:22:46,710 --> 00:22:43,760
late 19th

587
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:46,720
early 20th century and it was in his

588
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:47,760
collection

589
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:49,919
and by that time it was obviously not in

590
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:51,919
good condition and it was described as

591
00:22:58,630 --> 00:22:52,880
baltraphia

592
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:58,640
or was a leonardo pupil

593
00:23:01,909 --> 00:23:00,640
so it was it was known to be in that

594
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:01,919
collection

595
00:23:07,669 --> 00:23:04,960
and it was sold in the 1940s so

596
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,679
one of the last drips and drabs of

597
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:09,120
things to be sold from the cook

598
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,400
collection

599
00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:12,480
and wasn't it at a sum or am i thinking

600
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:14,960
of a later in 1958

601
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:18,240
something like 45 that's right yeah yeah

602
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:21,280
sold for some pretty derisory some and

603
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:22,000
if you'd seen if

604
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:23,919
it would there was a black and white

605
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:26,400
photograph on it when it was in the

606
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:28,159
in the cook collection and it looked

607
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:30,880
awful yeah there was a beard added

608
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:33,280
like a little mustache and right yeah

609
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:36,159
yeah there's a droopy beard and the

610
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:38,880
the eyes look um completely glazed as if

611
00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:40,080
somebody's been sniffing

612
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:47,110
all right so this this appears in 2005

613
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:49,200
it comes up we talked about it earlier

614
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:51,520
at a an auction in louisiana

615
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:54,720
it comes up um now

616
00:24:01,269 --> 00:23:59,200
uh what what what happens then and who

617
00:24:04,549 --> 00:24:01,279
how many hands does it go through before

618
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:04,559
it actually hits the auction block

619
00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:08,400
well the two dealers have

620
00:24:12,710 --> 00:24:10,960
invested in it not huge sums of money

621
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:12,720
but they've invested in it

622
00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:15,679
robert is directing the cleaning of it

623
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:16,400
and

624
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:20,000
at a certain point they think well

625
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,720
you know this is actually the real thing

626
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:24,400
they've got the pentamento they've got

627
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:26,559
scientific examination they've

628
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:28,720
they've seen this absolutely wonderful

629
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:30,720
handling the best preserved bits of the

630
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:33,200
picture are just spectacular

631
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:36,159
they really kind of fizz with vitality

632
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:37,520
um with leonardo's

633
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:41,520
very remarkable um way of conjuring up

634
00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:47,120
light on form and

635
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:50,320
and it then becomes caught up in the

636
00:24:54,070 --> 00:24:52,400
what to do with it they need to get it

637
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:54,080
out into the public domain and the

638
00:24:57,909 --> 00:24:55,360
national gallery in london

639
00:25:00,630 --> 00:24:57,919
is devising its show of leonardo at the

640
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,640
court of milan and

641
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:02,640
they obviously put us in the direction

642
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:04,880
of the national gallery and

643
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:06,960
luke seison the curator who's working on

644
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:08,720
the show and nick penny who is the

645
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:10,720
director of the national gallery and

646
00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:12,880
an expert on italian art amongst other

647
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:15,200
things

648
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:17,440
it was taken across to them and i

649
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,480
received

650
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:20,320
an email from nick penny saying we've

651
00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:22,000
got something

652
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:23,520
in the gallery which i think you might

653
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:25,760
like to see

654
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:28,240
and i went up to the gallery in london

655
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:28,880
um

656
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:31,679
petra morani the great leonardo scholar

657
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,240
for milan was there maria theresa fiorio

658
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:36,000
the superintendent

659
00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:39,520
superintendent of milanese paintings was

660
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:43,120
was there and um carmen bambach

661
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:46,159
from the uh the great

662
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:49,200
draw expert on leonardo drawings um

663
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:52,159
was there from the metropolitan and um

664
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:52,559
we

665
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:54,799
saw it in the conservation studios

666
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:57,679
beside the virgin of the rocks which

667
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:00,559
was being considered for cleaning in in

668
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:02,559
advance of the show

669
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:04,640
and uh at that point had it been

670
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:07,520
restored to the condition it is now

671
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:09,440
there was still a bit of work on the

672
00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:10,799
background and

673
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:14,080
and the the the the the second

674
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:15,760
thumb as it were the change of position

675
00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:18,080
of the thumb hadn't at that point as i

676
00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:19,120
recall being

677
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:21,440
painted over but yeah it was

678
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:23,440
substantially like it is now

679
00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:32,230
leonardo's have a presence um

680
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:35,279
you will know any you've seen and you

681
00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:36,240
talked about the

682
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:38,080
chilean galarani the lady of the krakow

683
00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:39,679
for nerman they have an extraordinary

684
00:26:44,950 --> 00:26:42,400
kind of living presence

685
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,960
some artists can do that rembrandt does

686
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:46,960
that with self-portraits michelangelo

687
00:26:50,470 --> 00:26:48,400
can do it with marble

688
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,480
they have that kind of living presence

689
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:52,240
as if they're not just made out of

690
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:53,360
pigment or

691
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:55,279
stone in the case of michelangelo

692
00:27:00,390 --> 00:26:57,520
sculptures and

693
00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:00,400
it was immediately apparent that it was

694
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:02,799
a strange picture it has this

695
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:05,279
uncanny quality to it which particularly

696
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,080
the later leonardo's tend to have

697
00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:10,000
but i mean that's not enough to say it's

698
00:27:15,029 --> 00:27:11,600
by leonardo but it's a

699
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:15,039
it's a good starting point so

700
00:27:22,870 --> 00:27:18,000
yeah i i you tend to i thought what do i

701
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:24,950
said hello to the other people and uh

702
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,520
and then looked at it carefully

703
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:29,919
and one of the things i observed

704
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:30,799
straight away

705
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:33,840
is that the sphere which christ is

706
00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:39,510
you think well that's a glass sphere but

707
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:41,200
it's not glass

708
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:44,399
and typical salvador mundi have grass

709
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:46,080
spheres that they're holding

710
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:48,000
sometimes they do glass particularly in

711
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:49,520
venice which was a major center for

712
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:50,640
glass

713
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:54,799
see that it was

714
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:57,840
full of little

715
00:28:02,389 --> 00:28:00,320
gaps or not exactly bubbles in the case

716
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:02,399
of ima having glass but

717
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:04,559
there are little internal marks in the

718
00:28:07,269 --> 00:28:05,840
sphere

719
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:07,279
and i remember there's enough of my

720
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:09,360
cambridge geology to think that's rock

721
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:11,600
crystal

722
00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:16,960
what are technically called inclusions

723
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:18,799
these little faults sometimes they have

724
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:20,559
cleavage planes this one didn't have

725
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:21,840
cleavage planes but

726
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:26,399
um so i said that's rock crystal without

727
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,080
um without very much evidence for it but

728
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:32,080
it's just an instinctive reaction

729
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:34,080
and that becomes interesting then

730
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:36,720
because why does leonardo use rock

731
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:37,919
crystal

732
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:40,320
um he was considered an expert in these

733
00:28:46,149 --> 00:28:42,320
semi-precious materials but

734
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:46,159
why did he use it in the painting and

735
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:48,240
it's clear that he's altering the

736
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:50,480
iconography the subject matter of the

737
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:51,840
picture

738
00:28:55,830 --> 00:28:54,720
that the crystalline sphere as known at

739
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:55,840
the time

740
00:29:02,350 --> 00:28:59,760
was with the sphere of the fixed stars

741
00:29:03,909 --> 00:29:02,360
so the the thick stars the

742
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:03,919
constellations uh

743
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:06,559
like flower and big dipper or whatever

744
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:07,440
um which go

745
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:10,559
round and seem to circulate in a

746
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:14,159
in a sort of orbit in a world of their

747
00:29:19,269 --> 00:29:15,919
own as

748
00:29:21,029 --> 00:29:19,279
um that was in the relationships called

749
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:21,039
and following ptolemy and classical

750
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:23,039
antiquity was called the crystalline

751
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:24,000
sphere

752
00:29:29,269 --> 00:29:27,120
of the fixed stars so what he's doing

753
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:29,279
is saying that christ isn't just savior

754
00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:30,720
of the earth he's the savior of the

755
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:32,880
cosmos his favor of

756
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:37,039
the whole planetary cosmological system

757
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,640
i was wondering what that represented i

758
00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:40,080
was going to ask you that

759
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:42,799
now how come you know i mean the the

760
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:44,960
little bubbles or inclusions

761
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:47,200
are really something when you look at it

762
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,159
closely

763
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:50,799
but how come the robe is not distorted

764
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:51,279
with the

765
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:53,600
light refraction like it should be do

766
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:55,440
you think that was purposeful

767
00:30:01,590 --> 00:29:59,760
yeah it's absolutely deliberate um

768
00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:01,600
the what would happen with the sphere

769
00:30:03,990 --> 00:30:03,760
there is according to how far you read

770
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:04,000
it

771
00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:09,440
being held by his arm some way

772
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,799
some way out from the from the draperies

773
00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:14,080
themselves

774
00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:16,559
what would happen there you'd really

775
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:17,120
need to

776
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:19,279
carefully experiment you get a lot of

777
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:22,080
very you get inversion and a lot of very

778
00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:25,840
strong uh curvilinear distortion

779
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,440
now then that is not going to do that

780
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:29,279
it's going to uh

781
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:30,960
dominate the whole picture and make it

782
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:32,399
look very peculiar

783
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:33,679
yeah i would draw your eye to it

784
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:35,840
wouldn't it yeah he wouldn't for

785
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:36,960
instance

786
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:39,120
in the baptism of christ show christ's

787
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:41,200
legs as refracted in water

788
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:43,600
and no artist would do that and there

789
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:45,600
were lots of effects visual effects that

790
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:47,200
leonardo said

791
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:49,919
uh were for the speculatory for the

792
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:51,840
philosophers for the people who think

793
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:53,279
about natural things

794
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:55,840
he knew that if something moved fast it

795
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:57,200
was blurred

796
00:31:01,509 --> 00:31:00,000
but he wouldn't paint blur in a picture

797
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:01,519
if

798
00:31:05,669 --> 00:31:04,559
so there were visual effects which would

799
00:31:08,070 --> 00:31:05,679
be

800
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:08,080
violate decorum that's to say the good

801
00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:09,600
manners which um

802
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:11,760
you would expect to observe particularly

803
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:13,760
in a devotional subject of this sort

804
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:16,960
so yeah

805
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:19,440
if people assume that he's going to

806
00:31:23,029 --> 00:31:21,200
follow the optical

807
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:23,039
truth of the picture down to the very

808
00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:24,880
end this is not what he does he's making

809
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:26,000
functional pictures

810
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:29,039
i see now let's talk about the

811
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:30,960
emotional part of this painting because

812
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:32,399
i think that's really interesting

813
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:33,679
there's a

814
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:36,159
video that shows you know people looking

815
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:37,760
at it for the first time

816
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,720
um did you feel as though this painting

817
00:31:44,870 --> 00:31:42,720
also had an emotional quality when you

818
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:44,880
saw it in person

819
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:47,600
it has this quality in a way that the

820
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:48,960
mona lisa has

821
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:52,720
that there is an emotion there there's a

822
00:31:58,470 --> 00:31:55,440
sense that the figure is looking at you

823
00:32:02,310 --> 00:31:58,480
and reacting and you're reacting

824
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:02,320
but it's it's not clearly defined it's a

825
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:05,440
it's a very elusive emotion

826
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:08,720
it's not simply something that um

827
00:32:14,789 --> 00:32:12,000
is saying i am

828
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:14,799
asserting my sovereignty over you or i'm

829
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:18,559
inviting you or i'm smiling at you

830
00:32:22,389 --> 00:32:20,320
in an accessible way it's got that

831
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:22,399
mysterious quality

832
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:25,039
it's it's about the ineffable about

833
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:26,720
something which

834
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:30,000
is there in our space but can't be fully

835
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:31,279
understood and christ

836
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:33,679
after all comes from heaven so although

837
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:35,919
he's incarnate he's turned into flesh

838
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:37,840
and blood like you and me

839
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:41,440
he remains this ultimate uh spiritual

840
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:42,559
figure

841
00:32:48,310 --> 00:32:46,080
and ultimately not knowable

842
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:48,320
in a very literal sense by our limited

843
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:49,840
human mind so

844
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:53,120
it's an exercise in in the ineffable in

845
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:53,919
the

846
00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:59,039
well as something we can see

847
00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:01,279
yeah yeah and really interesting you

848
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,399
know i think

849
00:33:05,669 --> 00:33:04,320
we skipped around i want to walk it back

850
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:05,679
just a little bit um

851
00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:08,880
to um i asked you about how

852
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:11,039
you know the hands um changed i don't

853
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:12,799
think we quite finished that

854
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:15,519
part of it um when it when it went to

855
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:16,880
auction

856
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:19,600
um how many different ownerships had it

857
00:33:22,389 --> 00:33:20,000
had

858
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:22,399
before i mean since 2005 when it was

859
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:23,200
first

860
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:26,240
just rediscovered which auction do you

861
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:27,120
mean sorry

862
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:29,120
uh the auction in louisiana was it was

863
00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:30,399
found in yeah

864
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:33,840
in in 2005 but i just wanted to know

865
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:35,440
until it went to auction and brought the

866
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:37,279
record price um

867
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:40,640
you know the ownership how many times um

868
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:42,880
how many times had it changed hands well

869
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:44,480
there's the gap between

870
00:33:51,509 --> 00:33:46,799
it being in leonardo's possession and in

871
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:54,549
and we don't then know certainly what

872
00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:56,720
happened to it who owned it

873
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,559
before it ended up in the collection of

874
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:00,559
charles the first

875
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:04,640
um in the uh 1630s say

876
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,360
um so there's that big gap we don't know

877
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:09,040
how many hands it passed through

878
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:11,440
oh i'm sorry i'm sorry for the confusion

879
00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:12,800
no i meant um

880
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:16,960
in 2005 it was bought by um some dealers

881
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:19,520
and did they they sold it it sold like

882
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:20,079
two other

883
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:21,919
times before it went to auction is that

884
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:23,839
right no it's not known

885
00:34:28,470 --> 00:34:26,800
um it was in the in the sale of the cook

886
00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:28,480
collection it was knocked down to

887
00:34:33,589 --> 00:34:30,560
somebody called

888
00:34:34,069 --> 00:34:33,599
which may simply be a sort of made-up

889
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:34,079
name

890
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:37,359
for the sake of um and

891
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:39,919
uh it then appears in louisiana and we

892
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:41,040
don't know what

893
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,200
the there are as i know as far as i know

894
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:45,200
there are no intermediate stages that we

895
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:47,599
know about it could have been in

896
00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:49,200
in the same collection the whole time it

897
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:50,720
could have changed hands once

898
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,079
twice three times for all i know okay

899
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:57,200
um now there is always uh when it comes

900
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:58,320
to da vinci

901
00:35:01,589 --> 00:35:00,800
there's always conspiracies you know dan

902
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:01,599
brown i think

903
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:04,800
may have helped that along in his books

904
00:35:08,790 --> 00:35:06,640
what have you heard about uh

905
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:08,800
conspiracies i'm sure you're

906
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:12,800
you've been contacted about yes

907
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:15,280
less than with some pictures and the

908
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:16,000
mona lisa

909
00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:18,240
is a field day for the for the brown

910
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:20,400
type people i get sent

911
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,440
um things about persian script in in the

912
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:25,760
mona lisa talking about nostradamus's

913
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:28,160
prophecies etc etc and there are

914
00:35:32,470 --> 00:35:30,640
there are lions and there are monkeys

915
00:35:35,829 --> 00:35:32,480
and alligators in the landscape

916
00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:35,839
etc etc um there's less of that

917
00:35:42,069 --> 00:35:39,680
but i've been sent things about um

918
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:42,079
using mirroring techniques to compare

919
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:43,520
the sides of the face

920
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,880
and to come up with elaborate

921
00:35:49,510 --> 00:35:46,880
conclusions about uh

922
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:49,520
psychological mysteries or statements

923
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:51,760
about the duality of the human condition

924
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:56,079
and so on um but but so far

925
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:58,880
all hot up so far i've had relatively

926
00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:01,280
fewer of conspiracy theories than

927
00:36:05,829 --> 00:36:04,160
um than i might expect but no doubt it

928
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:05,839
takes some time for the

929
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:08,000
for the secrets and inverted comers to

930
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:08,880
emerge

931
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:10,640
yeah i figured someone would read

932
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:12,400
something in the embroidery work or

933
00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:14,079
something like that

934
00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:17,680
they haven't done so so far yeah the the

935
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:19,839
the not pattern is interesting it's

936
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:22,320
almost certainly post venice

937
00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:25,359
because in in earlier leonardo not

938
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:27,040
patterns he was interested in these

939
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:27,680
curving

940
00:36:32,950 --> 00:36:30,880
shapes and

941
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:32,960
in venice he saw islamic patterns he was

942
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:35,680
in venice briefly in 1500

943
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:39,040
after milan and the

944
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:42,240
the pattern on the on these stoles on

945
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:44,000
the bands across his chest

946
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:46,160
these are essentially islamic

947
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:48,240
rectilinear patterns so

948
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:55,430
it's being painted after 1500. all right

949
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:57,280
um so we're going to be talking

950
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:58,960
in a little bit about the auction you

951
00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:00,480
know what happened at auction

952
00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:03,440
uh about the rumored uh buyer where it

953
00:37:07,470 --> 00:37:04,640
may end up all that

954
00:37:10,150 --> 00:37:07,480
but uh before that let's talk about the

955
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:10,160
authentication of this painting

956
00:37:13,589 --> 00:37:13,200
and i know there's an art critic um a

957
00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:13,599
name

958
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:17,200
jerry saltz he has a lot to say um are

959
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:19,680
was this a difficult piece is it still

960
00:37:25,109 --> 00:37:22,160
ongoing as far as the um

961
00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:25,119
authenticity of this and does the huge

962
00:37:27,990 --> 00:37:25,599
price

963
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:28,000
tag play into what's happening as far as

964
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:29,119
that discussion

965
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:32,000
goes yeah what happened was that it was

966
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:33,839
handled initially very

967
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:36,000
sensibly it was shown to a number of

968
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:38,400
leonardo specialists um

969
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:41,200
privately to give them a chance to

970
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:42,560
examine this and so on

971
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:46,640
and the majority of leonardo specialists

972
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,839
accepted it frank zolner didn't but he

973
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:51,520
was in germany and hadn't seen the

974
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:53,839
original but now he has

975
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:56,880
and the the objections have come from

976
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:59,599
people who don't understand leonardo

977
00:38:01,670 --> 00:38:01,359
don't understand renaissance painting

978
00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:01,680
don't

979
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:05,200
understand the rules that that pertain

980
00:38:10,470 --> 00:38:08,400
and got column inches by rubbishing

981
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:10,480
something which is uh

982
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,880
which went for 450 million pounds so it

983
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:14,400
was a very strange dynamic

984
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:16,960
it it absolutely wasn't heavily

985
00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:19,200
questioned by leonardo experts

986
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:22,079
apart from carlo prodretti who has never

987
00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:22,720
seen it

988
00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:25,760
and seems not to be aware of it in its

989
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:27,520
post-restoration form but

990
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:31,280
um no there are a number

991
00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:33,760
a number of critics got uh good column

992
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,320
inches by saying very silly things

993
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:39,200
now this uh there's so many similar

994
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:40,720
copies

995
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:42,800
made of this piece at one time there was

996
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:45,359
a an example that was thought to be

997
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:49,280
by leonardo um and

998
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:52,480
uh the question i have for you was this

999
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:55,200
like the school of leonardo i mean who

1000
00:39:00,069 --> 00:38:57,200
who are copying these pieces

1001
00:39:01,910 --> 00:39:00,079
um to begin with leonardo is massively

1002
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:01,920
carpeted even the mona lisa which is a

1003
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:04,160
portrait of a private person was copied

1004
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:06,160
a lot relatively early

1005
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:08,560
the devotional pictures were copied both

1006
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:09,760
in the studio

1007
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:12,960
the studio boys used the resource

1008
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:14,880
resources in the studio for producing

1009
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:17,359
additional madonnas and so on

1010
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:20,320
and uh leonardo was a brand in milan he

1011
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:21,119
was very much

1012
00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:23,280
carpet there were people who turned out

1013
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:25,520
leonardo like paintings and

1014
00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:28,560
i think the robert simon has been

1015
00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:30,560
sort of logging up these and at one

1016
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:33,119
point he was over 40 coppers

1017
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:36,000
and the one which was probably the most

1018
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:37,440
striking was in

1019
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:40,079
formerly in the dugani collection and

1020
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:42,000
owned by the contest of the hague

1021
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:45,280
before that rather a strat striking

1022
00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:45,920
picture

1023
00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:49,839
which um an american scholar claimed was

1024
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:51,520
the original for a whole series of

1025
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:52,640
reasons it's

1026
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:54,480
it's not the original the technical

1027
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:56,640
examination reveals the underdrawing not

1028
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:58,560
like leonardo

1029
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:00,720
the anatomical feeling of the hand isn't

1030
00:40:06,150 --> 00:40:02,720
very good etc etc

1031
00:40:08,790 --> 00:40:06,160
but that was the highest quality one

1032
00:40:09,589 --> 00:40:08,800
it never got big acceptance amongst

1033
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:09,599
leonardo

1034
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,400
scholars or more generally in the in the

1035
00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:14,400
world of art history

1036
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:17,200
so there was one prime version but it

1037
00:40:22,550 --> 00:40:19,200
didn't shape up as the original

1038
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:22,560
i see um now what about leonardo's

1039
00:40:25,589 --> 00:40:24,640
religious views and how does this

1040
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:25,599
painting of

1041
00:40:30,550 --> 00:40:28,640
um christ fit in with that yeah

1042
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:30,560
can't enter up just again the man doing

1043
00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:32,400
my door is about to go and i need to pay

1044
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:33,280
her

1045
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:36,800
sorry that's okay all right so uh again

1046
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:38,480
this is live so

1047
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:43,280
we have to move on here um and

1048
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:45,040
the one of the questions i was thinking

1049
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:47,520
about asking him is um

1050
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:51,359
the fresco of the last supper

1051
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:54,880
i can recall um it seemed like only

1052
00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:58,319
20 or 25 years ago when

1053
00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:01,680
they were restoring that and it was a

1054
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:04,720
major restoration and now i see

1055
00:41:10,790 --> 00:41:08,160
i see recent images of it and it looks

1056
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:10,800
like it is in total disrepair like it

1057
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:12,319
needs restoration again

1058
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:15,119
so that's a question i had wondering how

1059
00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:16,160
this

1060
00:41:22,870 --> 00:41:19,599
happened also another thing is

1061
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:22,880
in uh the florence town hall

1062
00:41:28,230 --> 00:41:26,720
there was a there's a question whether

1063
00:41:30,309 --> 00:41:28,240
there is a hidden

1064
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,319
uh leonardo behind one of the walls that

1065
00:41:36,069 --> 00:41:32,720
were constructed oh you're back already

1066
00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:36,079
yeah yeah no they've been had my

1067
00:41:41,030 --> 00:41:38,560
doors back in front off the hinges to

1068
00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:41,040
fit draft excluders much needed in this

1069
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:41,680
weather and

1070
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:43,520
being an old house it's taken twice as

1071
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:45,440
long as expected

1072
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:48,400
and you're right you're um are you uh

1073
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:49,040
you're in

1074
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:51,839
england where are you in england i am in

1075
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:52,720
woodstock

1076
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:56,079
which is uh 10 miles northwest of oxford

1077
00:41:58,790 --> 00:41:57,680
and on the edge of blenheim park

1078
00:42:02,710 --> 00:41:58,800
blenheim palace

1079
00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:02,720
ah i see okay um so

1080
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:04,319
we're we're on we're talking about

1081
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:06,160
religious beliefs

1082
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:09,280
um and how that fit in with uh

1083
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:12,720
the narrative of this painting yeah

1084
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:15,119
the first thing to say is that the idea

1085
00:42:19,910 --> 00:42:16,160
that leonardo

1086
00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:19,920
is some kind of heretic and he espouses

1087
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:22,079
that saint john is more important than

1088
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:23,920
christ there is absolutely no evidence

1089
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:24,800
of that at all

1090
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:27,200
and all this sort of dan brown stuff

1091
00:42:30,470 --> 00:42:28,800
which has become very popular as

1092
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:30,480
leonardo as a

1093
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:34,960
as a heretic as a as not believing in

1094
00:42:40,069 --> 00:42:38,160
in christ etc there is no evidence for

1095
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:40,079
that within leonardo's

1096
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:42,960
work at all it's a fantasy imposed from

1097
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:44,400
outside

1098
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:47,359
and leonardo basically believed there

1099
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:49,040
was a god

1100
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:51,520
um nature told him that that the

1101
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:53,040
perfection of

1102
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:55,920
foot natural forms the perfection with

1103
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:58,400
which forms are made in relation to the

1104
00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:01,680
natural laws um declared that there must

1105
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:02,560
be a maker

1106
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,480
somebody had made the clockwork as it

1107
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:06,240
were and wound up the heavens and

1108
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:07,680
designed the whole

1109
00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:10,560
the whole machinery of of the heavens

1110
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:12,640
and the whole

1111
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:15,359
business of how nature performs with its

1112
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:15,760
uh

1113
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:18,160
manifest perfection as leonardo saw it

1114
00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:19,440
so there is this

1115
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,560
figure um what he doesn't do

1116
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:24,079
and this is a perfectly respectable

1117
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:26,720
philosophical stance is to say

1118
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:29,920
i can study and define this figure he

1119
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:30,880
says i can see

1120
00:43:38,150 --> 00:43:34,240
god at work in the earth

1121
00:43:40,630 --> 00:43:38,160
i can see god's presence but i cannot

1122
00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:40,640
even begin to understand the nature of

1123
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:41,920
this sublime

1124
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:45,359
ineffable uh infinite being

1125
00:43:51,190 --> 00:43:48,640
um and christ as his son partake

1126
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:51,200
partook in that even though he was

1127
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:54,480
incarnate he was embodied in flesh

1128
00:43:58,630 --> 00:43:56,640
it's a it's a doctrine a double truth

1129
00:44:01,829 --> 00:43:58,640
you say well there's a truth

1130
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:01,839
that we can encompass in our human minds

1131
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:04,480
what we can see in nature how we can

1132
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:07,119
observe god's handiwork but there's a

1133
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:08,880
second truth which is the truth of

1134
00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:09,760
revelation

1135
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:12,720
the truth of the holy books he says at

1136
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:13,839
one point

1137
00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:16,240
leave let be the holy books because they

1138
00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:18,319
are the supreme truth

1139
00:44:21,829 --> 00:44:19,839
so he's not spent a lot of time

1140
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:21,839
discussing who is god and what is the

1141
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,119
nature of god

1142
00:44:27,349 --> 00:44:25,680
he says that is futile all we can do is

1143
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:27,359
to understand god

1144
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:29,760
in terms of our life on earth and what

1145
00:44:35,829 --> 00:44:31,599
we can see around us

1146
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:35,839
i see well i know he was an illegitimate

1147
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:36,720
child

1148
00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:39,599
and there's little known about the

1149
00:44:44,790 --> 00:44:41,839
relationship with his father

1150
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,800
but i just wonder do you happen to know

1151
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:45,839
did he have

1152
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:47,520
some type of relationship with his

1153
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:50,240
father and if so was it after he became

1154
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:51,440
a noted

1155
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:54,640
artist or before no we know

1156
00:44:59,030 --> 00:44:56,880
much more about this and the book which

1157
00:45:01,910 --> 00:44:59,040
i wrote with giuseppe palanti

1158
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:01,920
who's a specialist and archival work we

1159
00:45:06,230 --> 00:45:02,880
found out

1160
00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:06,240
a good deal extra about leonardo

1161
00:45:09,829 --> 00:45:07,760
including that his mother

1162
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:09,839
almost certainly was a 15 year old

1163
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:10,800
orphan peasant

1164
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:14,160
girl laying out his father the

1165
00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:17,280
family the da vinci family

1166
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:20,560
they were landowners and notaries um

1167
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,720
leonardo's grandfather who brought him

1168
00:45:27,270 --> 00:45:24,240
up stayed in vincium

1169
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:27,280
didn't work as a notary he he looked

1170
00:45:32,069 --> 00:45:29,119
after the properties and so

1171
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:32,079
leonardo's father a young man made his

1172
00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:33,599
way in florence and became a very

1173
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:35,200
important lawyer

1174
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:37,440
and while he was back on a summer's

1175
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:38,240
afternoon

1176
00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:40,079
fathered this child with this very

1177
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:41,359
vulnerable

1178
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:45,280
15 year old peasant girl called katarina

1179
00:45:48,470 --> 00:45:46,640
leonardo is brought up in the

1180
00:45:50,069 --> 00:45:48,480
grandfather's house he's listed and the

1181
00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:50,079
tax returns

1182
00:45:54,390 --> 00:45:52,240
and at some point we don't know when he

1183
00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:54,400
went to florence to be apprenticed to be

1184
00:45:57,670 --> 00:45:54,640
an

1185
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:57,680
artist he'd obviously shown

1186
00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:00,880
talent with andrea verracchio

1187
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:03,359
the painter sculptor master of all

1188
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:06,079
visual traits

1189
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:08,000
the relationship with the father seems

1190
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:10,400
to have been basically fine he was

1191
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:12,480
brought up as a cherished child

1192
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,960
the father married and produced i think

1193
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:16,720
something like 17 children

1194
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:20,800
wow and leonardo in florence is always

1195
00:46:25,750 --> 00:46:22,079
called leonardo

1196
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:25,760
di sapiro da vinci ser is the prefix for

1197
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:26,640
a lawyer

1198
00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:29,680
so leonardo the son of uh

1199
00:46:36,790 --> 00:46:32,960
sir of piro da vinci the lawyer

1200
00:46:37,910 --> 00:46:36,800
so and two of the early commissions the

1201
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:37,920
one for the

1202
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:39,920
altarpiece and the town hall which

1203
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:41,520
leonardo doesn't seem to have done much

1204
00:46:44,710 --> 00:46:42,480
work on

1205
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:44,720
and the adoration of the magi for the

1206
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:47,440
monastery of santa nato ascopeto

1207
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:49,920
um we can lead reid leonardo's father

1208
00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:52,640
and this was leonardo was the

1209
00:46:56,710 --> 00:46:54,640
one of the legal officers involved in

1210
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:56,720
both those organizations

1211
00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:00,000
i see now let's talk about the auction

1212
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:03,280
um when did you first find out that this

1213
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:03,760
thing

1214
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:06,400
was going to auction and what type of

1215
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:07,440
hype was there

1216
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,520
you know prior to this coming up

1217
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:13,440
well i was surprised it went to auction

1218
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:15,119
first of all um

1219
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:19,359
dimitri ribolof left was building up

1220
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:20,000
this

1221
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:23,280
major collection of pictures and

1222
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:25,520
i'd been in contact because we're

1223
00:47:32,069 --> 00:47:29,040
writing this book on it so obviously we

1224
00:47:34,230 --> 00:47:32,079
we looked at his cooperation and so on

1225
00:47:36,390 --> 00:47:34,240
and um

1226
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:36,400
it was a picture he much admired and the

1227
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:39,359
one that uh he was reputed as saying he

1228
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:40,720
would sell that last

1229
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:43,359
rather than the the other pictures but

1230
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:45,119
christie's managed to

1231
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:47,920
um persuade him that it it should be

1232
00:47:50,870 --> 00:47:49,760
sold along with other of the pictures

1233
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:50,880
he'd been buying it

1234
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:53,119
um from eve bouvier at these very high

1235
00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:54,640
prices

1236
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:58,559
um and uh yeah i was contacted by

1237
00:48:02,150 --> 00:47:59,839
christa's

1238
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:02,160
and they said oh you know the salvator

1239
00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:04,319
mundy is coming up for sale

1240
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:06,079
and they're obviously looking for me to

1241
00:48:10,069 --> 00:48:07,359
support it as a

1242
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:10,079
as a leonardo i did a video for them i

1243
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:11,440
said i'm not getting involved in the

1244
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:12,880
sale process

1245
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:15,119
but rather than have lots of silly stuff

1246
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:16,559
appearing out there

1247
00:48:20,870 --> 00:48:19,440
has happened anyway i'm happy to do a

1248
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:20,880
video

1249
00:48:27,510 --> 00:48:23,920
uh establishing uh

1250
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:27,520
what the picture is and how it works

1251
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:31,200
now did you have did you have a pre-sale

1252
00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:33,040
thought uh i've heard a lot of people

1253
00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:34,800
were tossing around the figure of

1254
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:38,400
you know 100 125 million uh did you have

1255
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:38,800
those

1256
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:40,800
any type of thought as far as numbers go

1257
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:41,839
is that not your

1258
00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:44,640
thing well what what happens i'm not an

1259
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:45,599
expert on

1260
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:47,920
on sale prices and indeed with leonardo

1261
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:50,079
nobody was an expert on the sale prices

1262
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:50,640
that's right

1263
00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:54,720
yeah there was a guarantee of a hundred

1264
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:56,559
million dollars on it which meant that

1265
00:49:03,190 --> 00:49:00,000
sotheby's had got some backer to say

1266
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:03,200
at the end of the day we will um

1267
00:49:07,109 --> 00:49:05,760
take it off you 400 million dollars and

1268
00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:07,119
it may have been one of the people who's

1269
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:09,359
actually bidding and maybe

1270
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:12,800
so we don't know that um the

1271
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:16,559
pictures which bouvier which uh

1272
00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:18,480
robot off left had been buying from

1273
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:19,680
bouvier

1274
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:21,359
he'd been selling them at a last was

1275
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:24,400
bouvier had these huge markups

1276
00:49:27,670 --> 00:49:26,960
and uh bouvier i think had paid about 70

1277
00:49:31,470 --> 00:49:27,680
million

1278
00:49:34,230 --> 00:49:31,480
dollars for the picture and sold it for

1279
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:34,240
137.5 million dollars i think it was

1280
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:37,680
for um to uh

1281
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:40,720
to rub off left and i

1282
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:43,119
i thought well it's going to struggle to

1283
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:45,119
make a hundred million dollars which

1284
00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:46,880
costs enormous money by your own my

1285
00:49:51,910 --> 00:49:48,800
terms but nonetheless

1286
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:51,920
um you'd been selling at a loss i went

1287
00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:53,359
to bed

1288
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:55,920
um it was night being auctioned at night

1289
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:57,680
time in britain i went to bed and i

1290
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:59,200
thought i could find out about it in the

1291
00:50:02,309 --> 00:50:00,640
morning and at

1292
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:02,319
two o'clock in the morning my phone

1293
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:04,559
begins ringing and

1294
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:06,960
my emails start going ping ping ping in

1295
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:09,520
the computer and

1296
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:12,319
so i i then heard that it had a gun for

1297
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:13,680
450 million

1298
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:16,000
and of course the media were then on to

1299
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:17,119
me so i did the

1300
00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:20,160
uh for about yeah for the whole of the

1301
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:21,760
next day i think i didn't have any

1302
00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:23,920
breakfast i had a bit of lunch and i was

1303
00:50:27,349 --> 00:50:26,720
going around around the studios dealing

1304
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:27,359
with

1305
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:31,599
completely balmy

1306
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:34,319
yeah now what is this how does this

1307
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:35,520
affect

1308
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:38,960
the uh the art world and the auction

1309
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:40,079
world do you think there

1310
00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:42,880
is an effect as far as people getting

1311
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:44,720
involved and bidding with this

1312
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:47,200
i know these don't come up but uh the

1313
00:50:50,470 --> 00:50:48,079
magnitude of

1314
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:50,480
something like this in a sense it's a

1315
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:52,880
one-off i mean leonardo writes his own

1316
00:50:56,870 --> 00:50:54,800
rules he is uh

1317
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:56,880
in terms of world culture he's a unique

1318
00:51:01,109 --> 00:50:58,079
figure you know

1319
00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:01,119
bigger than michelangelo dante whoever

1320
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:02,240
you

1321
00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:07,520
being in the leonardo business i know

1322
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:09,680
how extraordinary it is and how he

1323
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:13,839
he transcends time geography

1324
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:17,119
categories of people etc um

1325
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:19,440
so extrapolating from this sale into the

1326
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:21,200
art market more broadly is going to be

1327
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,319
dangerous but it

1328
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:24,319
it does provide a marker it means that a

1329
00:51:27,190 --> 00:51:26,240
picture can be worth that amount of

1330
00:51:29,270 --> 00:51:27,200
money

1331
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,280
but it doesn't mean to say that there's

1332
00:51:35,109 --> 00:51:31,920
going to be a sudden rash to pay

1333
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,119
prices for these things it requires

1334
00:51:41,750 --> 00:51:38,160
something exceptional to go beyond the

1335
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:41,760
world record price to that degree

1336
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:44,640
then other paintings are very rare and

1337
00:51:49,270 --> 00:51:46,000
the number in private

1338
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:49,280
captivity as it were even rarer so

1339
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:52,160
i think it was a one-off uh someone uh

1340
00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:53,440
asked me at one point

1341
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:56,079
uh what would happen to the mona lisa

1342
00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:58,000
what would it sell for

1343
00:52:01,910 --> 00:52:00,400
that would be wild speculation i'm sure

1344
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:01,920
it would be in the billions but who

1345
00:52:04,710 --> 00:52:02,960
knows

1346
00:52:06,069 --> 00:52:04,720
yeah that's billion billion dollar

1347
00:52:08,309 --> 00:52:06,079
picture yeah yeah

1348
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:08,319
now bourgeois florentine woman it's

1349
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:09,280
amazing isn't it

1350
00:52:15,910 --> 00:52:13,119
oh yeah yeah now um the

1351
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:15,920
uh the buyer um there's speculation

1352
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:16,960
about the buyer

1353
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:20,000
and um that was you know tight-lipped

1354
00:52:24,309 --> 00:52:22,000
and i know how auction galleries

1355
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:24,319
i'm sure sign something like a

1356
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:26,640
non-disclosure they will not

1357
00:52:31,910 --> 00:52:29,760
disclose who the buyer is i know that

1358
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:31,920
even in the middle of last night an

1359
00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:33,520
article came out in the new york times

1360
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:35,520
about trying to root out the buyer

1361
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:37,520
in speculation of the crown prince and

1362
00:52:43,109 --> 00:52:39,520
all that have you been following this

1363
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:43,119
yes i have um not least

1364
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:45,040
my former students and various other

1365
00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:46,880
people keep me up to date with what the

1366
00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:48,960
new yorker is saying

1367
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:53,200
um it the first report in new yorker was

1368
00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:56,000
that it had been bought by prince badair

1369
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:57,760
or peder i don't know how you probably

1370
00:53:07,829 --> 00:53:04,630
who is one of the lesser princes younger

1371
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:07,839
obviously looks rather trendy as some of

1372
00:53:13,829 --> 00:53:10,240
the younger saudi princes are

1373
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:13,839
and it was he who the new york times i

1374
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:16,319
think correctly identified as the person

1375
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:18,000
who was actually on the other end of the

1376
00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:19,839
phone bidding

1377
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:23,440
um and he'd only declared an interest a

1378
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:24,319
day before

1379
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:27,440
apparently and so sotheby's had

1380
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:29,599
christie's had to do some rather rapid

1381
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:31,760
due diligence to find out that

1382
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:33,760
he wasn't a chancer that he was actually

1383
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:35,359
up to that kind of

1384
00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:38,640
that kind of money the second of the

1385
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:42,000
uh of the revelations was based upon

1386
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:44,880
something from u.s security who monitor

1387
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:46,480
all these people

1388
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:48,480
and said that it was the crown prince

1389
00:53:54,069 --> 00:53:51,040
who is a friend of prince badai

1390
00:53:55,430 --> 00:53:54,079
who was actually the person trying to

1391
00:53:59,349 --> 00:53:55,440
obtain the picture that

1392
00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:59,359
uh baddell prince bader was a a proxy

1393
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:01,040
i have no way of knowing if this is

1394
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:03,119
right but it sounds

1395
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,240
plausible and christie's tweeted

1396
00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:08,400
saying it's going to lose abu dhabi

1397
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:09,520
right we're

1398
00:54:13,589 --> 00:54:11,680
going to get go on lu on loan there

1399
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:13,599
which i i hope is right because it's a

1400
00:54:16,710 --> 00:54:15,119
public collection

1401
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:16,720
i was there at the opening and i did

1402
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:18,480
some work for lou abu dhabi

1403
00:54:24,230 --> 00:54:21,599
it's a great great building and

1404
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:24,240
the leonardo la belfraniere from the

1405
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:26,400
louvre is already there

1406
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:29,760
um so i i hope that bit of the story is

1407
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:31,280
right and i'm

1408
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:34,960
uh i'm taking it as plausible that

1409
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:37,520
it's the crown prince who has bought

1410
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:38,000
this and

1411
00:54:44,789 --> 00:54:41,200
his young friend um acted as a

1412
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:44,799
as a proxy to kind of uh keep the heat

1413
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:45,119
off

1414
00:54:51,750 --> 00:54:50,960
i think that that's what i've been

1415
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:51,760
following too

1416
00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:54,799
now um i was going to

1417
00:54:58,870 --> 00:54:57,680
ask you but hopefully this will go into

1418
00:55:02,230 --> 00:54:58,880
a museum

1419
00:55:04,630 --> 00:55:02,240
one way or another um because when

1420
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:04,640
someone steps up like this and buys such

1421
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:06,400
an important piece

1422
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:09,040
um it's it's a well i think it's a

1423
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:10,160
tragedy to be

1424
00:55:13,589 --> 00:55:12,480
kept away from the public and there's

1425
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:13,599
really nothing

1426
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:15,280
people fight with their money when it

1427
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:16,799
comes to things like this there's no way

1428
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,160
to stop

1429
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:20,640
going back into a private collection and

1430
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:22,160
hidden away

1431
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:24,079
yeah well even if it's in louvre abu

1432
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:26,240
dhabi

1433
00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:28,160
with the understanding we've now got it

1434
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:29,440
will be on loan so

1435
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:31,440
there's no guarantee it's not going to

1436
00:55:35,109 --> 00:55:32,960
be sold on again

1437
00:55:36,950 --> 00:55:35,119
the problem for an institution is that

1438
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:36,960
it's quite outside

1439
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:39,119
even the getty in california it's

1440
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:41,040
outside what their purchase

1441
00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:44,480
power is so

1442
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:47,599
it's like and my hope was that it would

1443
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:48,319
be bought

1444
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:51,119
by a museum with very powerful

1445
00:55:56,069 --> 00:55:53,440
benefactor or benefactors

1446
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:56,079
bankrolling the purchase this is the

1447
00:55:59,910 --> 00:55:58,160
next best thing it's somebody who does

1448
00:56:02,069 --> 00:55:59,920
seem to be willing to share it

1449
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:02,079
it's interesting because of course it's

1450
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:03,359
he's a saudi prince

1451
00:56:08,410 --> 00:56:06,799
saudi arabia and not part of the united

1452
00:56:10,230 --> 00:56:08,420
arab emirates um

1453
00:56:13,750 --> 00:56:10,240
[Music]

1454
00:56:15,670 --> 00:56:13,760
of which um abu dhabi is part

1455
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:15,680
but nonetheless it's it's the obvious

1456
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:17,760
museum i mean it is the

1457
00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:19,920
it's the world museum it's the first

1458
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:22,720
world museum in the arabic world

1459
00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:25,680
um and it has spectacular loans from

1460
00:56:30,710 --> 00:56:26,720
from the louvre

1461
00:56:35,990 --> 00:56:33,750
within that arab context of the arab

1462
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:36,000
emirates the arab principalities and

1463
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:36,960
kingdoms it's

1464
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:40,160
um it's the best place for it

1465
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:43,920
yes yes and i know um there that uh

1466
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:46,480
a lot of buyers of the major artworks

1467
00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:48,799
that have come up in the last few years

1468
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:52,000
world record prices has uh been saudi

1469
00:56:55,190 --> 00:56:52,799
buyers

1470
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:55,200
and hopefully some of those works will

1471
00:57:00,549 --> 00:56:57,520
be displayed as well

1472
00:57:01,510 --> 00:57:00,559
yeah yes they're buying into western

1473
00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:01,520
culture the

1474
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:03,359
the big purchase i'm not an expert on

1475
00:57:06,789 --> 00:57:05,200
the market you know it better than i

1476
00:57:09,670 --> 00:57:06,799
but the russians obviously have been

1477
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,680
buying large the chinese to a degree but

1478
00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:11,040
they're only

1479
00:57:15,589 --> 00:57:13,520
dipping net their toes into old master

1480
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:15,599
paintings as i understand it and

1481
00:57:19,589 --> 00:57:18,640
then the saudis who are much more alert

1482
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:19,599
to the

1483
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:23,040
history of western culture yes okay

1484
00:57:26,710 --> 00:57:25,200
um now gonna skip around a little bit

1485
00:57:29,030 --> 00:57:26,720
here

1486
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:29,040
this has all been really fascinating as

1487
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:30,559
far as leonardo

1488
00:57:35,910 --> 00:57:33,599
choosing his narratives for

1489
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:35,920
a painting do you know how he'd go about

1490
00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:37,280
doing that because i think

1491
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:39,280
how many paintings i don't want to skip

1492
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:41,040
around too much but

1493
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:42,640
there are known paintings that he did

1494
00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:44,559
there's not too many right

1495
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:47,520
there's about 20 if you include um ones

1496
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:49,920
which are substantially leonardo but

1497
00:57:52,950 --> 00:57:51,839
they'll produce directly under his

1498
00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:52,960
command

1499
00:57:58,309 --> 00:57:56,319
yeah but it's it's a smallish number

1500
00:58:00,069 --> 00:57:58,319
this includes ones that shouldn't be

1501
00:58:01,829 --> 00:58:00,079
identified early on he was doing in

1502
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:01,839
verrocchio studio

1503
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:05,680
so i suppose if you want copper bottomed

1504
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:08,640
mature holy painted by leonardo i

1505
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:09,200
haven't

1506
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,359
done a count but my guess is it would be

1507
00:58:15,829 --> 00:58:13,680
about 15 16.

1508
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:15,839
amazing do you know how he chose his

1509
00:58:21,030 --> 00:58:17,920
narratives before he

1510
00:58:22,309 --> 00:58:21,040
uh started a painting the subject

1511
00:58:26,230 --> 00:58:22,319
matters

1512
00:58:27,910 --> 00:58:26,240
they they vary um an altarpiece for

1513
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:27,920
instance the ones he's commissioned

1514
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:29,680
early on in florence during the first

1515
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:32,160
phase of his career for

1516
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:35,520
um the council hall the the the council

1517
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:37,760
building in florence and for the

1518
00:58:42,150 --> 00:58:39,920
monasteries of donato oscar peter those

1519
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:42,160
would have been given to him

1520
00:58:46,230 --> 00:58:44,160
one was a madonna child and the other

1521
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:46,240
was an adoration so they'd be given to

1522
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:46,960
him

1523
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:50,319
the last supper for instance that's an

1524
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:52,720
appropriate picture for a factory where

1525
00:58:56,309 --> 00:58:53,680
the monks

1526
00:58:57,190 --> 00:58:56,319
eat and it's about bread and wine after

1527
00:58:59,750 --> 00:58:57,200
all so

1528
00:59:03,349 --> 00:58:59,760
that again would have been required a

1529
00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:03,359
portrait like mona lisa would

1530
00:59:08,549 --> 00:59:06,640
there be a request from francesco de la

1531
00:59:11,589 --> 00:59:08,559
giocondo in this case

1532
00:59:13,750 --> 00:59:11,599
um for learning to do the picture and

1533
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:13,760
francesco dale giocondo and leonardo's

1534
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:14,880
father were

1535
00:59:18,549 --> 00:59:17,599
in close contact leonardo's father acted

1536
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:18,559
as a lawyer for

1537
00:59:24,470 --> 00:59:22,160
francesco del giocondo

1538
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:24,480
but leonardo also did what we would call

1539
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:26,640
off the peg pictures

1540
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:28,640
he writes to the king of france or one

1541
00:59:31,190 --> 00:59:30,400
of his intermediaries writes the king of

1542
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:31,200
france at one

1543
00:59:35,750 --> 00:59:33,760
stage saying i'm coming to see his most

1544
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:35,760
gracious majesty and i'm bringing two

1545
00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:38,000
madonnas of different sizes

1546
00:59:42,069 --> 00:59:39,839
or i will paint something as the king

1547
00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:42,079
pleases

1548
00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:45,599
so the smaller scale devotional pictures

1549
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:48,640
were could be done speculatively

1550
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:50,960
the salvador mundi is not very small

1551
00:59:55,109 --> 00:59:51,920
scale but it's

1552
00:59:58,309 --> 00:59:55,119
it's not a big altarpiece so either

1553
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:58,319
somebody said i wish you to paint a

1554
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:00,000
picture of the salvator mundi for

1555
01:00:04,789 --> 01:00:03,599
me or he undertook it as an off the pig

1556
01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:04,799
picture

1557
01:00:08,710 --> 01:00:06,880
it's uh it's an unusual subject for

1558
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:08,720
leonardo it's not simply a madonna and

1559
01:00:12,390 --> 01:00:10,960
child so i suspect that it is the result

1560
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:12,400
of a patron

1561
01:00:16,390 --> 01:00:14,640
saying please do an image of the

1562
01:00:20,470 --> 01:00:16,400
salvatore mundi for me

1563
01:00:22,950 --> 01:00:20,480
i see now uh when you're um

1564
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:22,960
up checking about your door being fitted

1565
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:23,760
in there i

1566
01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:26,960
mentioned the last supper um i've

1567
01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:28,240
noticed from

1568
01:00:33,270 --> 01:00:31,200
recent images that it looks in pretty

1569
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:33,280
rough shape and i do remember

1570
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:35,200
it didn't seem like that many years ago

1571
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:36,960
it was undergoing restoration do you

1572
01:00:39,829 --> 01:00:37,680
know what's

1573
01:00:42,549 --> 01:00:39,839
what's going on with that well the last

1574
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:42,559
up has had a very

1575
01:00:49,430 --> 01:00:46,720
fraught history leonardo painted

1576
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:49,440
on the wall as if it was a panel he

1577
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:51,440
primed it with white lead which is

1578
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:54,160
impervious to

1579
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:56,400
to water and therefore doesn't let the

1580
01:01:00,870 --> 01:00:57,520
wall breathe

1581
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:00,880
he then used egg tempera um

1582
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:03,520
binding the pig pictures with egg rather

1583
01:01:08,789 --> 01:01:05,280
than the normal

1584
01:01:11,430 --> 01:01:08,799
fresco medium painting in wet plaster

1585
01:01:11,910 --> 01:01:11,440
and it deteriorated rather rapidly and

1586
01:01:13,829 --> 01:01:11,920
there

1587
01:01:15,270 --> 01:01:13,839
have been successive campaigns to

1588
01:01:17,670 --> 01:01:15,280
restore it

1589
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:17,680
um there was big restorations before and

1590
01:01:21,990 --> 01:01:19,839
after the second world war the refectory

1591
01:01:25,589 --> 01:01:22,000
was bombed in the second world war and

1592
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:25,599
the picture barely survived um

1593
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:28,160
and then there was i think it's

1594
01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:29,440
something like

1595
01:01:33,030 --> 01:01:32,160
12 years plus of restorations um

1596
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:33,040
conducted

1597
01:01:37,109 --> 01:01:36,480
in the late 20th century um which aimed

1598
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:37,119
to strip

1599
01:01:41,430 --> 01:01:40,000
off all the over paint and all the

1600
01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:41,440
infilling

1601
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:44,480
and uh then to fill it in judiciously to

1602
01:01:49,030 --> 01:01:46,240
make the picture work

1603
01:01:49,670 --> 01:01:49,040
so yeah if we're counting percentages of

1604
01:01:52,150 --> 01:01:49,680
paint

1605
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:52,160
surviving then the last supper is is

1606
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:53,760
much more damaged than the salvator

1607
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:54,880
mundi the amount of

1608
01:02:00,470 --> 01:01:58,480
original paint surviving in that is um

1609
01:02:03,029 --> 01:02:00,480
is quite low again i wouldn't wish to

1610
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:03,039
quantify it but

1611
01:02:06,069 --> 01:02:05,760
yeah it has a very checkered history it

1612
01:02:08,390 --> 01:02:06,079
still

1613
01:02:09,990 --> 01:02:08,400
makes its effect in spite of that it's

1614
01:02:13,430 --> 01:02:10,000
like hearing a

1615
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:13,440
a great record from a a great singer of

1616
01:02:17,109 --> 01:02:15,359
the past on a scratchy record

1617
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:17,119
these things are all remastered these

1618
01:02:21,190 --> 01:02:18,480
days but um

1619
01:02:25,029 --> 01:02:21,200
you can still get a sense of its

1620
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:25,039
grandeur its expressive quality and its

1621
01:02:32,230 --> 01:02:28,559
its remarkable visual effect

1622
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:32,240
um even though it's something of a wreck

1623
01:02:35,670 --> 01:02:34,480
um now just a couple more questions for

1624
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:35,680
you here are there

1625
01:02:42,069 --> 01:02:38,799
any updates as far as you know um

1626
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:42,079
in florence at the town hall of the

1627
01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:45,200
uh the whether the battle of angari i

1628
01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:46,960
don't know if that's pronounced right

1629
01:02:50,549 --> 01:02:49,039
actually exists on the in the wall

1630
01:02:52,630 --> 01:02:50,559
cavity of the town hall

1631
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:52,640
um the battle of anguiari like all

1632
01:02:57,030 --> 01:02:53,680
things in florence

1633
01:03:00,150 --> 01:02:57,040
has become a very politicized event

1634
01:03:03,510 --> 01:03:00,160
[Music]

1635
01:03:05,109 --> 01:03:03,520
my strong sense is that it won't have

1636
01:03:08,789 --> 01:03:05,119
survived

1637
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:08,799
um there have been claims that the

1638
01:03:13,829 --> 01:03:12,319
there's a wall lining the put on by

1639
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:13,839
vasari to

1640
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:16,559
to line the wall in which leonardo

1641
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:18,000
painted has

1642
01:03:23,589 --> 01:03:21,200
protected the picture behind and i think

1643
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:23,599
that's far from unclear to me

1644
01:03:26,710 --> 01:03:25,920
the the core samples that were drilled

1645
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:26,720
through

1646
01:03:29,990 --> 01:03:28,960
haven't come up with the fine plaster

1647
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:30,000
which would be painted

1648
01:03:33,750 --> 01:03:31,760
on they've come up with some plaster and

1649
01:03:36,710 --> 01:03:33,760
rubble

1650
01:03:38,549 --> 01:03:36,720
and if you imagine that this is painted

1651
01:03:40,309 --> 01:03:38,559
in oil which is even

1652
01:03:43,190 --> 01:03:40,319
more difficult to use on wolves and

1653
01:03:45,270 --> 01:03:43,200
tempera and it's been walled up with all

1654
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:45,280
the changes of temperature humidity

1655
01:03:48,150 --> 01:03:46,400
etcetera

1656
01:03:51,029 --> 01:03:48,160
and the chance of anything being left on

1657
01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:51,039
the wall is very very small

1658
01:03:54,230 --> 01:03:52,640
but nothing much is happening at the

1659
01:03:58,789 --> 01:03:54,240
moment it just got

1660
01:04:00,470 --> 01:03:58,799
bogged down the the conservation

1661
01:04:02,069 --> 01:04:00,480
the state conservation center in

1662
01:04:05,349 --> 01:04:02,079
florence the

1663
01:04:09,589 --> 01:04:05,359
uh official de la petre as it's called

1664
01:04:13,029 --> 01:04:09,599
uh not in favor of the investigation the

1665
01:04:15,589 --> 01:04:13,039
the mayor matteo renzi and then became

1666
01:04:18,069 --> 01:04:15,599
the prime minister of

1667
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:18,079
of italy he was in favor of it but i

1668
01:04:20,630 --> 01:04:19,119
think it's

1669
01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:20,640
it's not really being pursued at the

1670
01:04:25,750 --> 01:04:23,520
moment so i i think that's uh

1671
01:04:26,950 --> 01:04:25,760
that for the moment is a dead search

1672
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:26,960
yeah yeah

1673
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:30,079
um would there did they ever um

1674
01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:33,359
try to get some imagery uh through the

1675
01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:34,799
wall

1676
01:04:40,309 --> 01:04:37,920
yes they've done two things uh marito

1677
01:04:41,510 --> 01:04:40,319
saracini the main conservator involved

1678
01:04:43,910 --> 01:04:41,520
has used

1679
01:04:44,950 --> 01:04:43,920
various techniques including sonic

1680
01:04:52,230 --> 01:04:44,960
techniques

1681
01:04:55,270 --> 01:04:52,240
and more laterally drilling a very

1682
01:04:58,710 --> 01:04:55,280
a very small core sample through the

1683
01:05:00,789 --> 01:04:58,720
vasari frescoes um

1684
01:05:03,109 --> 01:05:00,799
and going through into what seems to be

1685
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:03,119
some kind of gap behind the wall

1686
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:05,359
and uh he said all he got pigments out

1687
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:06,160
which is same

1688
01:05:11,670 --> 01:05:10,079
the same as used by leonardo but um

1689
01:05:13,430 --> 01:05:11,680
all the painters use the same pigments

1690
01:05:15,829 --> 01:05:13,440
basically i see

1691
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:15,839
okay now the last question i have for

1692
01:05:19,029 --> 01:05:17,760
you um you were on the show before

1693
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:19,039
talking about

1694
01:05:24,950 --> 01:05:22,720
another possible apostle possible

1695
01:05:26,309 --> 01:05:24,960
uh leonardo discovery the labella

1696
01:05:28,390 --> 01:05:26,319
principessa

1697
01:05:29,829 --> 01:05:28,400
um i just wondered where that stood

1698
01:05:32,069 --> 01:05:29,839
today

1699
01:05:33,670 --> 01:05:32,079
yeah it stands much as it is it's in a

1700
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:33,680
kind of limbo

1701
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:35,440
the problem was that compared with the

1702
01:05:39,589 --> 01:05:37,440
salvator mundi which was introduced to

1703
01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:39,599
leonardo scholars and

1704
01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:42,240
we had time to digest it and research it

1705
01:05:46,549 --> 01:05:44,000
etc etc

1706
01:05:49,270 --> 01:05:46,559
that was leaked prematurely to the press

1707
01:05:51,270 --> 01:05:49,280
which puts up the backs of the

1708
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:51,280
of the art world they'd rather know

1709
01:05:57,829 --> 01:05:53,839
about what's what's happening

1710
01:06:01,109 --> 01:05:57,839
and it's been exhibited once in a state

1711
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:01,119
gallery in florence the um in uh

1712
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:04,799
robino the birthplace of raphael

1713
01:06:09,109 --> 01:06:07,839
but it's basically been exhibited

1714
01:06:11,349 --> 01:06:09,119
commercially

1715
01:06:12,870 --> 01:06:11,359
and it's very much in the trade as the

1716
01:06:15,670 --> 01:06:12,880
term goes

1717
01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:15,680
and it's become known as a kind of

1718
01:06:20,549 --> 01:06:17,920
speculative trade object which is not

1719
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:20,559
the object's fault it's um

1720
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:24,240
it's just how it is so the difference in

1721
01:06:28,549 --> 01:06:26,240
handling between the salvator mundi and

1722
01:06:30,630 --> 01:06:28,559
the bela principessa the portrait of

1723
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:30,640
bianca schwarzer as it almost certainly

1724
01:06:33,670 --> 01:06:31,680
is

1725
01:06:35,750 --> 01:06:33,680
and that's accounted for the public

1726
01:06:36,870 --> 01:06:35,760
reception most art historians haven't

1727
01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:36,880
seen it

1728
01:06:41,670 --> 01:06:39,920
ah really wow so no it's an

1729
01:06:45,430 --> 01:06:41,680
unsatisfactory situation

1730
01:06:47,510 --> 01:06:45,440
and it really needs to be out in the

1731
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:47,520
in the public domain in a more sustained

1732
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:49,839
way properly inspected

1733
01:06:56,470 --> 01:06:54,720
um the uh no it wasn't handled very well

1734
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:56,480
and somebody who researched that i

1735
01:07:00,309 --> 01:06:57,920
obviously need to take some

1736
01:07:03,270 --> 01:07:00,319
responsibility for that i wasn't

1737
01:07:03,750 --> 01:07:03,280
handling the publicity for it right

1738
01:07:05,829 --> 01:07:03,760
right

1739
01:07:07,990 --> 01:07:05,839
well hey thank you so much it's been a

1740
01:07:12,829 --> 01:07:08,000
pleasure as always

1741
01:07:17,109 --> 01:07:15,109
www.martinjkemp.com

1742
01:07:18,950 --> 01:07:17,119
that is correct i'm also writing this

1743
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:18,960
book for oxford university press

1744
01:07:22,870 --> 01:07:21,599
on the salvatore monday which should

1745
01:07:25,270 --> 01:07:22,880
should be out

1746
01:07:26,309 --> 01:07:25,280
next year sometime so it's not quite

1747
01:07:29,349 --> 01:07:26,319
finished yet

1748
01:07:31,829 --> 01:07:29,359
excellent okay well thanks so much okay

1749
01:07:33,990 --> 01:07:31,839
my pleasure all right all right everyone

1750
01:07:35,029 --> 01:07:34,000
so uh that's it for the show today

1751
01:07:38,150 --> 01:07:35,039
thanks for

1752
01:07:39,910 --> 01:07:38,160
on youtube or listening

1753
01:07:43,950 --> 01:07:39,920
if you're listening to the podcast these

1754
01:07:45,510 --> 01:07:43,960
podcasts can be found at

1755
01:07:48,950 --> 01:07:45,520
antiqueauctionforum.com

1756
01:07:51,870 --> 01:07:48,960
also you can listen in itunes um

1757
01:07:53,430 --> 01:07:51,880
or your media player there's i believe

1758
01:07:55,910 --> 01:07:53,440
184

1759
01:07:57,510 --> 01:07:55,920
counting this one shows that are free to

1760
01:08:00,789 --> 01:07:57,520
you to listen to a lot of them

1761
01:08:01,109 --> 01:08:00,799
are you know informational so check it

1762
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:01,119
out

1763
01:08:06,510 --> 01:08:04,240
antique auction forum.com also my

1764
01:08:08,470 --> 01:08:06,520
appraisal website

1765
01:08:09,349 --> 01:08:08,480
seaboardappraisals.com thanks so much

1766
01:08:27,179 --> 01:08:09,359
and we'll be back